long travel vs sas

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SAS vs. Long travel?

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As far as price, which is cheaper? If I went LT It would just be a chaos front end, deavers in rear. I'm getting a 4runner this week and have plans for it, I just don't know what they are yet. haha  

to get a decent suspension set up, i believe long travel is gonna be cheaper and easier... Also what do you plan to do with your rig, thats a big thing on making the decision.  

crolison said: what do you plan to do with your rig, thats a big thing on making the decision. Click to expand...

Both will be expensive. A sas can be done on the cheap if you can weld/fab up everything yourself, but it still isnt cheap  

personally i like ifs long travel because you have the option of but high speed wheeling and crawling, SAS kinda just limits you to crawling, i mean yea you can do high speed stuff but ehh, so if you can afford LT do it!  

I'll add to the concensus that you need to figure out how it's gonna be used first. If you're gonna crawl, you probably don't want an 8" wider front end trying to fit between rocks and stuff, and won't be all soft and flexy. If you're gonna be running 80mph you don't want a floaty, flexy front with no IFS.....  

It's actually gonna spend a lot of time on the freeway for snowboarding. I've always wanted a long travel but I thought an SAS would be cheaper. (and all my buddies ave straight axles) I do all the work myself as far as welding and fabbing. And I do more high speed than low speed stuff. I just want a good lift, no drop brackets or ball joint spacers ot anything.  

how much are you willing to spend?  

i've read LT can be about 1/2 the price of SAS....sometimes 1/4. but i guess it depends on which axles you use and stuff. i don't know anything about SAS stuff...lol  

yea ive never heard of anything like that.ihelped out on 3 sas buildsand i got tc gen. III on my 91. you can find a yota solid axle for a few hundo. its about 1500 bucks for the whole sas kit that included cross over steering. most of the crap like spring hangers can be made for wicked cheap. and all you need is leafs. i got over 5k in my front end alone. but for a simpler set up your lookin at 3k minumin. ive seen sas conversions done for a little over a grand. haha  

I guess a SAS COULD be done for "a little over a grand", but honestly, you have a front end that is no stronger and doesn't flex much better than stock IFS. To do it RIGHT you're looking close to 3 grand with highsteer, gears/lockers, and Longfields. IMHO, longtravel IFS is the best solution for an "all around" truck. Will drive great on the street (whether paved or not) almost guaranteed, which is not necessarily the case with a SAS. You will have plenty of travel for most rockcrawling, and I TOTALLY disagree with the above statement about the width - look at all the guys wanting to do full width axle swaps for crawling!  

I just pissed myself from that picture of the FJ....  

That bump stop close to touching at full droop makes me think that probably doesn’t work so well.  

haha yea i never said anything about"me" buildin a rig for a grand. that shit was janky as all hell. cheap aint good and good and cheap, but it can be done. and good fab skills and general knowledge can overide the quality of a budget build. and spending over 5k on a silly axle is no less than retarded. run a damn dana 60, shorten the axle tubes with some chromo shafts and beefy spindals and it would be indistructable and sure as hell cost less than whatever you got goin on. that double cab is truely a work of art tho.  

Got a build thread for The Beast? BSI, you argue like my girlfriend :flipoff4:  

Yes! http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12383 I'm trying to update it right now so please be patient.  

holy crap are you serious. well im gonna go ahead and stick my foot in my mouth. that still seems like a lot tho.  

The housing is absolutely the cheap part. You start adding the locker, high-steer arms, gears, axle shafts, u-joints, hubs, diff cover, rebuild: bearings, seals, brakes. The price just climbs up. I am building a 'mild' rear axle, and yes, I'm using top parts, but it will be over $3k -and that is with sourcing some used pieces (locker, 3rd housing). Can it be done cheaper? Yes. Can you build an axle for $1k...only if you have absolutely everything fall into place for you, and you can do all the work yourself....and it may be that it takes a person a while to get a 'deal' on all the various pieces and parts to make a low buck quality axle happen... time is a big variable in the cost.  

Maybe you're right that was a bit harsh :lmao:  

Super Pac Man said: Nice, build but do you have a build for the FJ? Click to expand...

there's a guy down here that did a sas for under a grand...his dad's truck took a dump and he pulled the axles out (dodge d60 front i think) and traded a lot of stuff and work to get the shafts and joints....then a guy one of the 4 wheel shops ordered a front locker (cheap lockrite i think) and gears for the same axle but never paid for em or picked em up so he got those super cheap...he fabbed up all the other stuff himself. lucky bastard, it can be done but like someone said...ALL the chips have to fall into place  

yep, it's not a cheap swap...  

my :2cents: 4x4 longtravel is the best you can get  

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Solid Axle Swap FJ Cruiser

There’s no terrain too tough for this 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser

For many who off road and overland, all it takes is one time out on the trail and that person is hooked. A new found hobby is formed and many adventures soon follow. Once that trail-seeking bug bites, many of us see various iterations to their beloved 4×4. That is exactly what happened with this extreme rock crawling FJ Cruiser. After only one trail ride with a friend, a new hobby ignited and the desire developed for owner Sean Voruz to push his trail running limits.

With an SAS FJ Cruiser like this one, you’d be amiss to not get the most bang for your buck on a several-state-spanning trip. .event-btn-mgn{text-align: center;}.event-btn-mgn a {background-color: #00344d;padding: 0.5em 1em;box-shadow: 0 0 10px 5px rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.3);border: 1px solid #000000;color: #FFFFFF;text-decoration: none;text-transform: uppercase;font-size: 1.1em;line-height: 1.5;font-weight: 700;text-align: center;margin: 1.5em 0; display: inline-block;} Subscribe to our weekly newsletter

The solid  axle up front combined with the King  2.5 coilovers give this blue beast flex for days.

The 2007 FJ Cruiser started out as a 4WD option to get around the snowy streets during Wisconsin’s winters. However, after a move to Colorado, the FJ Cruiser started a whole new life as an off-road adventure machine. Voruz took the FJ on a trail run with a friend who owned a Jeep. From that point, Voruz was hooked. Inspired by the trip, he Immediately decided to lift the FJ and installed a 3-inch Toytech lift. He also added a 1-inch body lift, a full set of skid plates, aluminum front bumper with a winch and a roof rack, all within a 6-8 month period.

Hitting the trails in Moab is exactly where this FJ Cruiser is meant to be.

This rendition lasted about a year until Voruz wanted to go on more difficult trails. He took the FJ Cruiser out on most weekends and got plenty of time behind the wheel. The more he left the pavement for dirt, the more he felt the need to challenge himself. One harder trail lead to another harder trail, and Voruz knew it was time for another upgrade to the FJ Cruiser.

“It’s that attention to detail that caused him to do most of the custom work himself.”

Voruz custom fabricated the rollcage, compelte with pool-noodle protection, to keep his family safe.

Seeking advisement from professionals in the off-road community, he was originally talked out of a solid axle swap (SAS) and installed a long travel suspension setup instead. That didn’t last long. Along with a Total Chaos suspension, he added an ARB air locker and took out the FJC’s A-trac. He also installed a Dana 60 in back. The upfitted FJ Cruiser rode like this for about a year until a torn CV boot convinced Voruz it was time to do the solid-axle swap.

Voruz has always been very involved in the FJC’s build. If he didn’t do the work himself, he was definitely there helping out. He completed the SAS with Rock Solid Toys in California, making several trips from Colorado to California to help out and learn how to perform the swap. After it was finally finished, Voruz jumped in the SAS FJ Cruiser and drove straight to 2017 FJ Summit to put it to the test.

All the gear shifters can not be missed when climbing into the passenger seat. They control his front and rear axles, plus a lower gear option that changes the gear ratio of both axles.

Tackling trails with this setup was thrilling, and Voruz kept it this way for three years. During that time he experienced one of his most memorable trips. In 2018, Voruz and his friend drove the SAS FJ Cruiser on a trip that marked over 2,000 miles out to the Rubicon in California. They pit stopped in Tonopah, Nevada, to pick up his friend’s father and some guys from his off-road group. Together they all drove out to Rubicon Springs and did the famous Rubicon trail in two days. After a couple more days of camping out in Nevada, Voruz and his friend headed home, but not without a quick stopover in Moab to run some hard trails on their own. With an SAS FJ Cruiser like this one, you’d be amiss to not get the most bang for your buck on a several-state-spanning trip.

One harder trail lead to another harder trail, and Voruz knew it was time for another upgrade to the FJ Cruiser.

The unique front end of this adventure rig stands out in a crowd and proves its off-road prowess.

The weekend trail warrior drove this build version for a few years until he eventually modded it some more. At the time, there wasn’t enough up travel with the larger 40-inch tires. They were hitting the fenders, much to the dismay of Voruz. So back under the knife went the FJ Cruiser and the front and rear fenders were removed.

“My whole thing was to only cut off the front end and get rid of the fenders. Nothing else, just that.” Voruz shares. “But I got the tube cage in the front started, built the frame, and since I had it all torn apart, figured I might as well just strip everything out.”

He then removed the entire interior, took out the insulation and rubber matting and cleaned it up. Then he sprayed the interior with a ceramic heat barrier and lizard skin, a sound deadening rubber spray. At that point, he also fabricated and installed a roll cage since everything was out and he wanted one eventually.

The FJ climbed Hell’s Gate with ease, while a local tour guide driver helped spot.

We got the chance to ride in this blue beast out in Moab. Not only did it make an impression on us, but also on others we ran into on the trail. Onlookers had to get a closer inspection no matter where we stopped. All were impressed with the hard work Sean Voruz has invested into his off-road rig. Impressing the Moab locals and those who also build their own rigs is exactly what Voruz wants. Mission accomplished. One Moab trail guide even commented, “He did it right,” A nod to the dedication and attention to detail used on this extreme rock crawling FJ Cruiser.

A KC Hilites C-series light bar, Cyclone LEDs, and Flex Amber LEDs light up the trail at night, while the Genssi Demon Eye headlights add a personal touch.

It’s that attention to detail that caused him to do most of the custom work himself. When asked to name his favorite modification, Voruz replied, “The tube chassis and cage because it looks crazy and I love it. It makes it unique. There’s not another FJ out there quite like mine.” Definitely the attention grabber of the build, people always ask him about it, and Voruz proudly gets to tell people he built it himself.

Voruz took the FJ on a trail run with a friend who owned a Jeep. From that point, Voruz was hooked.

A Super Winch is available for use when the FJ gets stuck, or to help others on the trail.

Finally at a point where he’s happy with the capabilities and proud of his work, the only thing he would change now is adding fender tubing armor on the rear quarter panels. And well, that would have been a solid addition for the exciting tip over we experienced with him in Moab . Experienced driving got us back upright and damage was minimal. However, the rear quarter panel armor may have saved his rear window. Should he have another sideways incident or possible rollover, Voruz doesn’t mind. He told us, “And if ever it rolls, the FJ top comes off.” At that point, the SAS FJ Cruiser would mirror the Jeep that started it all.

On it’s fourth iteration, this rock crawling FJ Cruiser is always ready for an adventure.

You can see more of the SAS FJ Cruiser build and the Sean Voruz’s adventures on Instagram and Facebook @seanvoruz . 

2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser

Suspension: King 16-inch 2.5 body coilovers with IBP and adjustable remote reservoirs (front); King 12-inch 2.5 body coilovers (rear)

Wheels & Tires: Pro Comp Beadlock wheels 8.5×17, 4/5” backspacing; Nitto Trail Grapplers 40×13.5×17

Additional Modifications: Dynatrac Pro Rock D60 differential (front); Currie Rock Jock D60 (rear); 72 inches wide, 5.38 gear ratio; ARB air lockers; 2.75” PSC full hydrallic steering kit; custom transmission; custom transfer case; RCI aluminum fuel tank;

Interior Accessories: custom rollcage; PRP suspension seats and bench seat; Cobra CB; Optima D27F; ARB twin compressor; custom air conditioning lines; 8 camera HD DVR recording system and 4 cameras; custom fuse box in 50 CAL ammo can

Exterior Accessories: stock modified custom grille; stock modified hood; Genssi Demon Eye LED headlights; KC Hilites 45-inch C Series, Flex LEDs, Cyclone amber turn signals, Amber C3 spot lights; Super Winch 12K Talon Series; custom sliders; custom fenders; custom tube frame and tube cage to replace front clip; custom rear trailer hitch skid; rear tire carrier swing down/out bumper; King 2-inch adjustable hydralic bumpstops; Kartek off-road limit straps and adjustable clevis mounts, custom battery box; Griffin alumuniun radiator; 2 10-inch electric fans; 150AMP Bluesea fuse box; 2.5 gallon air tank in rear cargo area

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How much travel with SAS

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How much suspension travel are you SAS guys getting out of your setups, especially those of you who have done it to a Tacoma? And here's the question you're really going to flame me for but I figure this board should know... Why does a solid axle allow better articulation than IFS if the IFS has similar travel?  

The IFS does NOT have similar travel...my old IFS had about 4.5" travel....my SAS should have about 14" travel...... so the solid should do better.....:flipoff2: welcome newbie  

IFS, What travel??? Why would you even ask a question like that? Welcome newbie:flipoff2: :flipoff2:  

independent suspension does not articulate at all, each wheel acts independently. also you can't really reasonably get similar wheel travel out of IFS as you can with Solid. I've seen trucks with junkyard thrown together springs ride great and max out the longest Rancho shocks, IFS can't even compete.  

Granted, stock IFS has crapy travel, but I'm looking around at different web sites and finding long travel IFS kits that give 14 -18 inches of travel. One I saw was going for about $3000 installed. Compared to the $5000 to $8000 I've seen on SAS write-ups the $3000 option is looking pretty thrifty. Keep in mind I'm almost as new to the sport as I am to this board and I haven't figured out which I like more, going very fast across the dessert or going very slow across rocks. It seems long travel IFS could be effective either way. Of course, when I read this board even the mention of IFS evokes mass flaming and verbal beatings worthy of a red headed step child. (although replies to this thread have been suprisingly tame so far.) So my real question is... is there $2000 to $5000 worth of advantage to going with SAS or is it just the current trend? If the point is that solid will allow more travel than the longest IFS then that would settle it but that's why I asked the question I started the thread with.  

If your quoting 5-8K for an SAS I assume your having someone else do the work. Why not spend 1K on a good welder and a torch setup, spend another 2K on parts and do the SAS yourself? In doing so, you just educated yourself, you have the pride of doing it yourself, you've saved money, and you get to keep the tools when it's all over.  

more_toys said: Compared to the $5000 to $8000 I've seen on SAS write-ups. dude....i put a HP D60 under a 95 GMC fullsize and it didnt cost that much.:flipoff2: Click to expand...

more-toys... people here don't like IFS. Right now I'm debating between IFS A-Arm kit or SAS for my 88 4Runner. What company are you looking at for the IFS Long Travel kits?  

solid axles have a different kind of travel that IFS. When one tire is pushed up on a solid axle the oposite tire is pushed down. So that makes the travel more than if you were to push both tires at the same time. On IFS when you push one tire up the other one will just dangle there and get no traction. Also IFS front ends are weak.  

dont even debate getting the A-arms, man. save your pennies, wheel your truck as it is, and SAS when you can. dont waste your money on IFS mods. Good luck with your Taco, it's ballsy to wheel those newer rigs!  

The solid axle acts as a lever and forces the articulation (one side compresses, the other droops). On IFS, both sides would compress slightly. The prices you are reading are mostly liklely comprehensive and include lockers, complete axle rebuilds, gears and tires. Things that were done at the same time, but not required for a SAS. I included these items in my write ups. There are also some items that are necesity v. need. Crossover steering vs. hi steer. Custom braided lines vs. adapter fittings. I see no reason why someone who does the work themsleves couldn't do a SAS for the same amount that ErikB posted. Shop around and find the deals. I built a samurai for my room mate for $4k, which inlcuded buying it, swapping in waggy axles, new gears, front and rear lockers, GRSII transfer, High Angle d lines, 35x12.50 BFG MT's, saginaw crossover power steering, braided lines, rebuilding the tranny, new exhaust, Toy IFS rear springs up front, stock YJ springs in the rear. My fab time was free.  

more_toys said: How much suspension travel are you SAS guys getting out of your setups, especially those of you who have done it to a Tacoma? And here's the question you're really going to flame me for but I figure this board should know... Why does a solid axle allow better articulation than IFS if the IFS has similar travel? Click to expand...

How much suspension travel are you SAS guys getting out of your setups, especially those of you who have done it to a Tacoma? Click to expand...

my brother and i (luke miller, for those who may know him) are in the tail end of doing a SAS on my 94 xtracab toy. my estimate for the cost was around $800. about 60% of that cost was for the hysteer components from all-pro (chris gieger is a great guy and pleasure to do business with). the rest includes rancho shocks, ubolt flip kit, and shock hoops. u could also factor in around $40 i paid for 4 sets of leaf springs (waggies and mazdas) i removed from the junkyard and i guess a few more $20s for scrap metal at the local steel yard for a front crossmember, shackles, etc. i guess the fact that i got my 85 toy axle from my bro's truck helps lower the cost. but u could get a dana axle out of the junkyard and still have a total around $1000. i don't know about toy axles, since pre-85 toys never seem to come into the junkyards in LA. my cost was without bigger tires and gears, but you'd need to get bigger tires and gears for your IFS kit, too. most of those higher-priced SAS conversions are factoring these in plus they probably bought leaf springs from all-pro, rockstomper, etc which are high-quality and do offer a lot of flex. but i'd rather throw down $40 for 4 sets than hundreds for the same. it all depends on what you're willing to do: get down and dirty in the junkyard or dig into your wallet. i once was in your shoes where i really thought a long travel IFS would be perfect for both worlds, but in the end, a SAS looks cooler and works better. you can prerun AND rockcrawl. we just put the tires on my "new" axle and it looks great. took us awhile, but i'm excited. and if u love that prerunner look that all the teenagers in their ford rangers and tacomas are running around with with the front raised up and rear in the dirt, doing a SAS without raising your rearend will sit u in just the same stance as those guys! i'm hoping to cruise around the local teen hangouts with my grossly exaggerated prerunner for awhile before i raise the rear. anyways, do more research and choose wisely. and if u do choose an IFS, check out the kits scott has at rockstomper. they've got a pretty cool looking IFS truck. -david miller  

"""i'm hoping to cruise around the local teen hangouts with my grossly exaggerated prerunner for awhile before i raise the rear. anyways"""" That isn't why I did the SAS......I wanted room for 38's, which means more ground clearance for more trail fun......  

There's a lot of good info here. thanks. So I think my plan for now will be to add some spacers or some other cheap lift to the stock setup in front and find some 63" chevy springs for the rear. That ought to let me get 33s under it. Then save the pennies and do the SAS later on. Maybe after its paid off.  

more_toys said: ... Why does a solid axle allow better articulation than IFS if the IFS has similar travel? Click to expand...

schwing! It is worth it!  

Attachments

TK said: schwing! It is worth it! Click to expand...

carter said: I like the bumper! Click to expand...

TK said: Its for sale!:flipoff2: It is even clearanced on the passenger side Click to expand...

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IFS vs. SAS (don't throw rocks until you read)

• Thread starter Stuckinthe80s
• Start date Aug 14, 2020

Stuckinthe80s

Rising sun member.

• Aug 14, 2020

DaveInDenver

Rising sun ham guru.

Long travel doesn't solve the IFS issues. For some people the extra travel and track width scratch the itch but I really don't see any reason to bother over an SAS if you're reworking the front end just do it right once. For crawling there's no argument that can be made that IFS is better than solid axle. It is not. But so what? It rides better and is safer on the highway, that's why it's on the front ends of trucks. It's going to be maybe a better choice at high speeds and washboard. We get it on our trucks because most truck don't get rock crawled. We're the exception by using them in anger. And I don't mind saying I prefer that it ride well on the highway, so sue me. I'm not a hard core 'wheeler so my approach is perhaps band-aid any shortcomings (like I would put a truss on the rear lower arm mounts on your 4Runner IFS), run a decent skid plate and then just use the stupid thing. I'm not good enough for it to matter and I've never had more than one truck so wailing on something I can't afford to break at this point has zero attraction, therefore IFS is far, far from my limiting factor. In my estimation an SAS isn't worth the cost and headache over running a closer to stock truck that I don't have to remember this year, this model nonsense pulling part numbers from the EPC or running custom junk that's one-of if I need it half through a trip. Toyota's IFS is OK, better shocks and springs, in my case upper arms that correct caster and clear a 3" spring and done-and-done. Why over think it?  

Hard Core 4+

If it wasn’t already on there or a more hardcore type vehicle I’d stay ifs all day long. Rides better and goes faster. If it’s just a crawler then yes solid axle.  

J Kimmel said: If it wasn’t already on there or a more hardcore type vehicle I’d stay ifs all day long. Rides better and goes faster. If it’s just a crawler then yes solid axle. Click to expand...

FunkyYota said: I agree. I think solid axles get you more bang for your buck for crawling. Strength and articulation. I think solid axle is better for the DIYish or relatively low buck crawler. Even if you go to tons or rockwells it's still gonna be less than a comparable independent truck. That being said if I had 250k to throw at an ultra4 with IFS I'd consider it... Click to expand...

J Kimmel said: Ya but I’m saying just a camper explorer type vehicle ifs is so much better. Even an old ifs 4Runner or something I would swap it anymore unless big rocks were my intent from day one. Click to expand...

Perfect  

Cruise Moab Committee

I'd suggest that folks who go LT and later SAS are doing it for strength. You can get a lot of performance out of IFS (Race Trucks, etc) with custom parts and near limitless budget but for everyone else it's lots easier to build a bomb proof solid axle. I think the breakover is when IFS parts (axle, diff, steering) are no longer holding up and no more upgrades are available. Will Marlin Crawler RCLT change this picture?!?! Should be fun to find out.  

Notyourmomslx450

AimCOTaco said: Will Marlin Crawler RCLT change this picture?!?! Should be fun to find out. Click to expand...

You had to know Marlin would figure something out because doing SAS on Tacoma and newer 4Runner means using an ancient Toyota axle is a PITA on account of the wrong side t-case drop. A Jeep Dana 44? Seriously? Ewww, feels so dirty.  

White Stripe

Usually when I'm driving a rig, my confidence is based a lot on the strength of the suspension and axles, not so much the suspension type. With a 200 series I would feel pretty confident in pushing it offroad because the front end parts are strong. A tacoma? Not so much. Some manufacturers put some pretty wimpy ifs components on from the factory that cant handle much. To upgrade the ifs components on such a rig to handle big tire abuse is expensive because everything has to be modified. Supposedly the ford bronco sasquatch come with beefier front axles and diff compared to other packages .  

DaveInDenver said: You had to know Marlin would figure something out because doing SAS on Tacoma and newer 4Runner means using an ancient Toyota axle is a PITA on account of the wrong side t-case drop. A Jeep Dana 44? Seriously? Ewww, feels so dirty. Click to expand...

I dream of having a 70 series LC because of the SFA. I think the main reason is because of the more technical things you can do with it. That being said I enjoy how nice the ride is on my 4runner with the front IFS.  

• Aug 15, 2020

ajordan1975 said: This is where custom axle housings like Diamond comes in to play. I have a buddy that’s built 2 fifth gen 4Runners w/ solid axles. Click to expand...

MountainGoat

Club treasurer.

I'm with Jackson on this. Having both is the way to go. My stock 3rd Gen with an e-locker and 100 Series with A-Trac will get me most places I want to go. The 100 pulls the pop up just fine. The lifted, armored, triple locked 80 handles the rest. I like to adventure rather than rock crawl, so if there is any doubt I just take the 80. They each have their place in our family wheeling life. I love every one of them.  

• Aug 17, 2020

jps8460 said: Gotta have both . I love how my 200 blazes down fire roads, desert tracks and the interstate. I love how the 80 handles a bit more technical terrain. I think it’s about what you want to do. Ifs and i4s cars are winning more and more at KOH soooo the “which is better” debate is starting to even out. Turns out if you have 2-300k lying around you can have the best of both worlds lol. Click to expand...

MountainGoat said: I'm with Jackson on this. Having both is the way to go. My stock 3rd Gen with an e-locker and 100 Series with A-Trac will get me most places I want to go. The 100 pulls the pop up just fine. The lifted, armored, triple locked 80 handles the rest. I like to adventure rather than rock crawl, so if there is any doubt I just take the 80. They each have their place in our family wheeling life. I love every one of them. Click to expand...

Ohhh buddy. That thar is a can of worms. There really isn’t a right or wrong answer here, but I’ve been down a few of these roads. As was said above, it’s really about what you want to do. Long Travel isn’t worth it, to me, unless you are going to hit the big air in the desert or the dunes. And even there, to actually do that without destroying the truck, you are going to be pushing over 10k. if you want cheap reliability on difficult trails and are okay with tinkering until you get it right, you can’t beat a solid axle swap on an old truck. And if you want to wheel with the big boys, you need it. Sure U4 cars can run the big rocks with IFS, but one U4 CV is more than your typical solid axle swap. ifs will go anywhere you want to go and still keep the body straight. And even go some places that’ll twist the body. My third gen did just fine up in the Black Hills, Over in BFE, up Blanca, And Holy cross. It’s got some crumply bits in the same places solid axle rigs took crumply bits on those same days. In fact I can only think of one time I’ve had to pull cable and that was in a mud hole. In a lot of cases, I have had zero trouble while solid axle rigs struggled behind me. So I don’t agree that a solid axle is better for rougher terrain, up to a point. that said, IFS is going to have problems in the rocks, eventually. You will battle alignments constantly, and by extension, you will ruin a lot of tires. It is very difficult to find alignment shops that can properly align lifted IFS. And you have to learn how to drive it, or you will blow axles and diffs all day. To wheel hard, a front locker is mandatory, which is a significant investment if you plan to solid axle swap anyway. someday I will solid axle a truck. I have a few axles sitting in my yard. I just can’t decide how to, and never seem to find the time these days.  

One other thing to consider DDing a LT truck. Unless you invest in some glass fenders, you will throw rocks into your mirrors and windows and paint. A lot. And coat the windows in slime during every Snow storm. May not bug you but something to keep in mind.  

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Long travel OR SAS?

Discussion in ' 2nd Gen. Tacomas (2005-2015) ' started by ShadowT , Sep 25, 2011 .

#1 ShadowT [OP] New Member

I am soon goin to make some major changes to my 08 single cab. i have old man emu springs and a 3'' body lift, and i moved the cab mount immediately behind the front tire up 3'', which allows me to fit up to 35'' tires. Im running 33's now, but i want to run 36's. So i need more lift, but dont want my axles in a bind... a long travel suspension would help that some right? But will the IFS be strong enough to handle 36's? OR will i be better off with a SAS to a dana 44? thnx for any help  

#2 TexasTacoma37 Well-Known Member

ShadowT [OP] initial post: ↑ I am soon goin to make some major changes to my 08 single cab. i have old man emu springs and a 3'' body lift, and i moved the cab mount immediately behind the front tire up 3'', which allows me to fit up to 35'' tires. Im running 33's now, but i want to run 36's. So i need more lift, but dont want my axles in a bind... a long travel suspension would help that some right? But will the IFS be strong enough to handle 36's? OR will i be better off with a SAS to a dana 44? thnx for any help Click to expand...

#3 ShadowT [OP] New Member

I live in east texas we dont have much rock, mostly mud and hills to climb. I would prefer the ground clearance of the long tavel but am concerned about the stength ot the front diff.  

#4 TexasTacoma37 Well-Known Member

So you don't go up to Barnwell much then? I can't imagine where you could really need long travel around here other than some lease roads.  

#5 650H1 Well-Known Member

#6 RockRescue Well-Known Member

SAS and use a diamond axle with 30 spline longfeilds  

#7 ktmrider Senior Member

lets see this body mount.  

#8 steve o 77 braaap

ktmrider said: ↑ lets see this body mount. Click to expand...

#9 Kayak Taco Active Member

#10 97yota4wd Well-Known Member

how much money you want to spend, and as said above rock crawling or fast desert running?  

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8 things I learned while flying business class on SAS  

The next time you're traveling to Denmark , Sweden or Norway , you may very well find yourself flying on the region's main airline, SAS . For a recent trip from the New York City area to Oslo, I found a great cash fare for round-trip flights to the Norwegian capital that was thousands of dollars cheaper than what my preferred airline, United , was charging.

I'd never flown with SAS before, and because I'm on an eternal quest for United MileagePlus Premier qualifying points , I hesitated to book directly with SAS and face complicated earning rules. (The airline's declaration of bankruptcy this summer didn't help, either.) But the price was too hard to resist and, since SAS is a Star Alliance member, I knew I could still earn some points and segments to help me requalify for MileagePlus Premier status in 2023.

But it wasn't long after I booked my discounted economy-class SAS Go fare that I started to regret my decision to take a seven-hour overnight flight in an economy seat that didn't even come with a free seat assignment. Fortunately, I was able to bid on an upgrade to SAS Business and enjoyed my flight across the Atlantic in a lie-flat, business-class seat instead. Here's what I discovered about the product — and the thrill of winning an upgrade bid.

You can bid your way to an upgrade

Many airlines allow you to bid on an upgrade , though travelers are often restricted to upgrading by just a single class of service — you can't always leapfrog from economy to business or first class instead of premium economy. I initially called SAS to ask about paying for an upgrade, and a friendly agent informed me it would cost upward of $5,000 to do so, in part because they could only upgrade the entire four-segment trip. All I really wanted was to sleep in a horizontal position from New York to Norway, though.

That was going to be a no.

Instead, I decided to take advantage of the airline's upgrade bidding program. In the days leading up to a flight, travelers can bid on an upgrade to a premium cabin. You have until 25 hours before departure to bid on domestic and European flights but can submit a bid as late as six hours before departure for U.S. and Asia flights.

Bids for business class on my flight started at 420 euros (about $410 at the time due to the strong U.S. dollar — and a steal, in my opinion). I rounded up to 450 euros (about $440 at the time) to improve my odds. A bit of research (read: Googling) led me to believe many travelers secure upgrades with only the minimum bid, and an ExpertFlyer search confirmed there was wide-open availability in business class on my flight. About 24 hours before my flight, I received an email saying my upgrade had cleared.

Travelers could certainly wait until the last possible hour to check seat availability, though I'd make sure you bid on U.S. and Asia flights at least 25 hours in advance, which is when the upgrades start to clear.

If you happen to be sitting on a stash of EuroBonus points (or American Express Membership Rewards points , which transfer to EuroBonus at a 1:1 ratio) you can also bid on an upgrade using those points.

A winning bid won't change your fare class

Though cash upgrades do earn additional EuroBonus points, the fare class of your ticket stays the same, so I did not end up earning more United PQPs than I would have if I'd stuck with my coach seat since United still considered my ticket to be an SAS Go fare.

You'll get business-class perks (regardless of how you booked)

My business-class experience began at Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR) . Though my flight to Oslo Airport (OSL) departed from the sorely underwhelming Terminal B, which didn't even have a dedicated TSA PreCheck line or Clear kiosks , I was able to take advantage of lounge access. I would have been permitted entry with my Star Alliance Gold status , but for travelers who don't have other means of entry, your business-class boarding pass will do.

The SAS Lounge in Newark's Terminal B, near Gate 60, was suitable for short stays, but I wouldn't count on having a substantial meal there. There was plenty of seating in the distinctly Scandinavian design-inspired space, but despite the late hour, the lounge was fairly busy.

There was a self-serve beverage bar and a disappointing cold food buffet (fresh lettuce and raw vegetable crudites, but also trays of sliced turkey and American cheese slices) and no music; you forget how important a bit of background sound is until it's completely absent.

Other perks include free onboard Wi-Fi, where available, and access to Fast Track security lanes, where available.

The meal was surprisingly good — even for business class

It had been years since the last time I'd flown international first class with an international carrier, and I had forgotten how much better the food is than in economy — generally speaking.

I was impressed with the service I received during my seven-hour flight from the New York City area to Oslo. But what I loved the most about the experience were the thoughtful details and special touches I wasn't expecting. A couple of members of the crew changed into crisp, double-breasted chef's whites for the dinner service (I'd find out the following week this was true in economy, too), which established a more formal dining atmosphere.

My flight attendant "set the table" with a crisp white linen napkin, and my potent gin and tonic was mixed to order and served with the remaining can of Ekobryggeriet tonic.

Though my colleagues have since remarked that I should fly international business class more often (no arguments there), I was thrilled when dessert was rolled out on a cart for passengers. I felt immediately transported to the Hogwarts Express — only instead of a trolley witch selling chocolate frogs and boxes of unpredictably flavored jelly beans, a flight attendant was doling out plates of seasonal fruit with vanilla yogurt, apple doughnuts and ice cream.

Even before dessert, I was impressed with the variety and execution of the meal that evening. Dinner was preceded by a selection of breads, a mixed greens salad and a choice of starters (beef tenderloin carpaccio or Maine lobster with smoked tomato vinaigrette with corn salsa).

Entrees included four selections that accommodated almost every dietary preference (broiled chicken with lemon sauce and garlic confit; a mustard-and-pepper short rib with truffle Gruyere gratin; seared sea bass atop a fennel and tomato ragout; porcini and caciocavallo ravioli with mushroom ragout).

I ordered the sea bass, which was perfectly prepared; it was moist and flaky, with no indication it had been reheated in a galley microwave.

The service was attentive and frequent

I'd hardly sat down in my seat before a flight attendant came by to offer me a beverage (water, red wine or a sparkling white). And the drinks never stopped coming after that, with the flight attendants frequently asking if I wanted another gin and tonic.

I've been on much longer international first- and business-class flights in the past where you're counting the hours between beverages, or have to get up and request one (which I always feel a bit uncomfortable doing). I shudder to think how many drinks you could consume on an SAS flight if you were able to down a full drink between flight attendant check-ins.

Though I mostly slept on the overnight flight, the flight attendants also politely woke me for breakfast, upon request, and assisted with my overhead luggage whenever I needed it. It wasn't the first time I'd found the overhead bins too high to reach, but these did seem even taller somehow.

You can get a massage in your seat

The best part of a strip mall pedicure is, I'm sure we can all agree, the massage chairs. And the lie-flat seats on board SAS are equipped with the same technology, which I wouldn't say made for a more restful sleep but was particularly fun while I waited for my food to arrive.

You could crank up the firmness of the seat five notches, and the simple massage feature delivered a gentle rolling massage.

Though they're not the most spacious business-class seats in the sky, Hastens bedding is provided (including a seat topper, a thick checker-pattern blanket and a cozy pillow) which even puts United Polaris' Saks Fifth Avenue bedding to shame.

The Scandinavian bedding brand is famous for its craftsmanship, and if you wanted a duvet of your own at home it could easily set you back between $800 and $5,000. (Travelers might know the brand from the $11,000-per-night Regent Seven Seas Cruises suite with a handmade Hastens mattress worth around $200,000.)

Seats are competitive — especially for the price

Business-class cabins on the SAS A330 are arranged in a 1-2-1 configuration, with the window seats alternating between either the seat itself or the console being right up against the window.

Though every seat allows every passenger in the cabin to enjoy direct aisle access, having a seat right up against the wall (like mine, 2H) of the aircraft made getting in and out of the seat a tight squeeze, though the actual Thompson Vantage XL seats were comfortable and spacious, with easy-to-use controls.

Seats on board are 23 to 24 inches wide, and they can transform into 77-inch beds when flat. When in a full lie-flat bed position, the footwell does get a bit cramped.

It's a great introduction to Scandinavia

I loved rifling through my amenity kit when I boarded to see the assortment of Scandinavian brands represented in the little bag (including lip balm and moisturizer from Stockholm-based Verso Skincare). And the aforementioned Hastens bedding made my night far more restful than I expected; cozy and with enough weight to transport me far from the freezing skies to, say, a mattress store in Sweden.

The menu featured a variety of Swedish, Danish and Norwegian brands and ingredients — apple must from Norway's Upper Ringi farm; port wine marmalade made in Malmo, Sweden; and a Danish IPA and Pilsner — and went to great lengths to celebrate the region. My only disappointment was that the seafood entree featured sea bass, and not Norway's iconic pink salmon.

Bottom line

My business-class flight on SAS wasn't perfect. When I settled into my seat, I quickly realized I had an inoperable tray table and would have to lean over the armrest to eat for the duration of the flight.

And the boarding process was not unlike watching the doors to Best Buy open on Black Friday: Either every single person in that plane had priority boarding, or the gate agents did nothing to maintain order.

There wasn't a ton of space for my belongings at the seat either; there was no enclosed storage, like the miniature cabinet you'll get at a United Polaris seat . But SAS still delivered great value for its premium service.

Now, if only I could convince them to recalculate my total ticket price with the upgrade bid so I can earn more United PQPs.

SAS Plus: Taking the Edge Off Economy Class Travel

By manu venkat.

When it comes to the passenger experience on long-haul flights, the gap between economy and business class just keeps getting bigger. Today’s business class is all about universal aisle access, suites with doors, and other features that used to just be for first class. Back in economy, seats and legroom are tighter, and amenities are disappearing.

But lucky for us, many airlines are offering a new island of refuge in the middle of the gulf between economy and business: so-called “premium economy.” Oxymoron? Maybe. But if it’s a way to take some of the harsh edge off of flying in economy, without having to shell out big bucks for business class, then consider us interested!

We recently did some flying with SAS Scandinavian Airlines, whose long-haul A330 and A340 fleet recently got a major interior makeover. On the outbound to Copenhagen we had a blast trying out their new business class , but on the way back we made sure to score a seat in SAS Plus, their premium economy cabin. The seat itself was more economy-plus than business-minus, but amenities like lounge access, free WiFi, and fast-track airport security were a great way to sweeten the deal. All in all, SAS Plus did a great job of making economy class much more comfortable and fun.

Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

Read on for our full report and our thoughts on whether SAS Plus is worth it on your next trip.

The Ground Experience

SAS Plus includes a bunch of business class perks, like access to fast-track security lanes at certain airports. In Copenhagen, where I started my journey, I was through in thirty seconds flat.

SAS Plus further sets itself apart by including business class lounge access. The lounge in Copenhagen is divided into two sections: a ground level lounge for business class and SAS Plus passengers, and an upstairs section for passengers with SAS / Star Alliance Gold status. The photos below are from the business class + SAS Plus section. There’s a variety of seating and a solid selection of light food.

BONUS: Anything But Ordinary: Scandinavian Airlines’ “Next-Gen” Lounge in Oslo

The SAS Plus Seat

If you’re flying SAS Plus, you get priority boarding along with business class. Awesome! And I got to say hi to the flight crew during boarding. Extra awesome!

SAS’ long-haul fleet is fairly fresh off a major cabin overhaul, and it really shows. The seats and finishes were in good shape, and I was a big fan of the charcoal seat colors.

The cabin on SAS’ A340-300 fleet is arranged in four rows, 2-3-2 across. Regular economy is 2-4-2 across, so you can think of economy plus as cutting one seat and distributing the extra width across the other seven seats. SAS Plus isn’t the most spacious premium economy seat out there, but it’s definitely enough to make for a noticeably more comfortable ride, and offers a good degree of recline.

Seat backs have a large storage pocket, though the seats have no other dedicated storage. The inflight entertainment screens are as big as many other airlines offer in business class, with crisp resolution and great touch responsiveness.

BONUS: Air France A380 In Premium Economy

Bulkhead seats have fold-out IFE screens, which are slightly smaller – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

I had selected bulkhead window seat 20A for my journey, which gave me enough legroom to leave my seat without making my aisle seat neighbor get up.

This A340-300 took its sweet time getting off the ground on takeoff roll. It was a dreary morning in Copenhagen, and right after we lifted off we were in the clouds.

Four engines for long-haul – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

Inflight Service

Flight attendants started the first meal service by asking which drinks I wanted before the meal, with the meal, and with dessert. Then they handed them all to me at once. It was a bit awkward having to store it all at my seat, but at least SAS is generous! Regular economy on SAS doesn’t include wine, beer, or spirits gratis, so SAS Plus is a big step up in that sense.

Drink service – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

There aren’t any printed menus in SAS Plus. Instead, flight attendants came around a few minutes after drinks and explained that we’d have a choice between chicken with mashed carrots or tortellini. I went with the chicken. The presentation was definitely economy-style, but it was one of the tastiest long-haul economy meals I’ve had. The seafood appetizer was nice and light, and who knew mashed carrots are even better than mashed potatoes?

Dinner service – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

A sweet coconut dessert went well with some after-dinner cognac and coffee.

By the time the meal wrapped up, it had gone from daylight to twilight outside. Interestingly, the sun hadn’t set because we were too far east or west of sunlight, but because we had flown so far north.

Beautiful “sunset” – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

While SAS Plus does offer an amenity kit, it only includes a shoe bag, dental kit, ear plugs, and a sleep mask. The essentials, but nothing more.

Amenity kit – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

The cabin doesn’t have its own lavatories, and instead shares lavs with the regular economy cabin.

Even though it was a daytime flight, I got three hours of solid sleep thanks to the thick blankets, pleasantly cool cabin temperature, and good amount of seat-back recline.

Midflight Snack

The flight crew did an amazing job coming through the cabin regularly with water and juices. About halfway through the flight, they offered a snack service of flatbread with either venison or butter, along with fruit, candy, and coffee or tea. I’d already checked “venison on a plane” off my AvGeek bucket list during my flight in SAS Business a few days prior, so I went with the safer butter-only option this time. Bread and butter sounds boring on paper, but Scandinavian butter tastes amazingly rich.

Butter and candy… – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

Inflight Entertainment and WiFi

Internet access goes a long way in helping pass the time on a long flight, but usually the crazy cost of inflight internet keeps me offline. So I think it’s a huge positive that inflight WiFi is free of charge for everyone in SAS Plus. Especially later in the flight, I was pulling some excellent download speeds.

BONUS: Singapore Airlines Unveils Premium Economy Product

Ever since its long-haul cabin makeover, SAS offers bright and responsive inflight entertainment screens in all cabins. There are also exterior camera views — every AvGeek’s favorite! The library of movies is pretty good, too. The soft-tipped earphones block out some sound but are still pretty basic, so BYO headphones if you have ’em.

Free headphones. Bose they are not. – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

Final Meal Service

Over the Sierras – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

As we crossed the border into the U.S., flight attendants came around with the final meal service. This time around there weren’t any choices offered, and I didn’t catch the name of the dish being served. Whatever it was, it was pretty tasty — especially the lentil salad. SAS does well with the small touches on dining like offering cool glassware and serving bread nice and warm.

I never get tired of the view on the approach to SFO from the north.

SFO area, including the Golden Gate Bridge – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

The Verdict

All things considered, SAS Plus does a great job of providing a comfortable middle option between basic economy and business class. You can’t grade any inflight experience in a vacuum, and SAS Plus and other premium economy options are increasingly appealing as regular economy gets more and more features stripped away.

Here are the winning factors for SAS Plus in my book:

• The seat is big enough to avoid rubbing shoulders with your neighbor, and the generous recline and footrest make for better sleep.
• The dining service benefits from more drink options and the extra choice of entree, though overall it’s still closer to economy than business.
• The smart selection of extra features address the most painful parts of basic economy: crowded airport terminals (solution = business class lounge access), security lines (solution = fast-track security lanes), and inflight boredom (solution = great inflight entertainment and free WiFi).
• From my bit of research, SAS Plus is priced pretty affordably for a premium economy product. And you can often make a game-time decision to upgrade at the gate.

I do think there are a few small areas for improvement:

• The trek back to the regular economy cabin to use the restrooms was annoying. I wonder if SAS can include some dedicated premium economy lavatories when it takes delivery of its new A350s.
• The amenity kit is very basic and could benefit from some moisturizer, socks, and/or a comb.

A look at SAS’ Star Alliance partner as we pull into the gate – Photo: Manu Venkat | AirlineReporter

Now it’s time for us to hear from you. Have you flown SAS Plus before? Or have you tried any other airline’s premium economy product? Share your thoughts in the comments section below. 

Disclaimer: SAS Scandinavian Airlines provided us with access to this flight for the purposes of a review. All opinions are our own.

Manu Venkat

SENIOR CORRESPONDENT - NEW YORK, NY. Manu is an avid air traveler, private pilot, and a dedicated AvGeek. He enjoys writing about aviation from a millennial's perspective, and co-manages AirlineReporter's social media and video projects. His day job is as a doctor in NYC.

Thanks for a great and informative article! In my opinion, SAS offers a very nice economy plus product that I will consider on future flights that I pay for! I appreciated the photos and the detailed explanation you provided! I agree with you that SAS will do well to consider better restroom access on their newly ordered A-350s!

Fantastic report! The best Premium Economy that I have flown is with JAL from Helsinki to Tokyo and back, simply fantastic! I have also flown with LH from Montreal to Frankfurt and it was pretty good as well! But JAL’s was better!

We recently flew SAS Plus from SFO to CPH bu lounge access in SFO was not included – a minus for us. Nor was any amenity pack given to us. Otherwise, as you say, a big step up from Economy Class (although the extra miles gained were just 20% more)

Upgraded at Arlanda on my flight to LAX for about $160. All I had to do was ask, and they had seats available.

Seats were great , food was decent (they seem to serve the same style of dish towards the end of the flight.) Entertainment system was not that great though, and I could not get the WiFi to work either. But either than that, it was great! I have heard of people upgrading to business at the gate or at check in for $300-500 bucks also. I will try next time I fly SAS.

Thank you for sharing . Very useful.

How do we request a certain diet option from SFO to Copenhagen in the night nonstop flight?

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Review: SAS A350-900 Economy Class

There is much to like about SAS longhaul economy class on the A350…but also much not to like.  This review recounts my A350-900 flight in economy class, what SAS calls “SAS Go,” from Copenhagen to Los Angeles.

In This Post:

SAS A350-900 Economy Class Review (CPH-LAX)

This flight was part of a larger itinerary from Malta – Los Angeles via Frankfurt and Copenhagen I booked using 44K United miles. If you book SAS flights in advance, they can often be very cheap in economy class (the same is true in premium economy), but last-minute ticket tend to be quite pricey.

However, SAS often does release award space at the last-minute, which was greatly appreciated here when trying to get a family of four home from Europe during the peak of the summer travel season.

We began our morning in Frankfurt with a quick flight to Copenhagen . There, we had a marathon walk from our gate (A14) to the connecting gate (C33). With only a 45-minute connection at Kastrup Airport, boarding was nearly complete by the time we reached the gate.

SAS 931 Copenhagen (CPH) – Los Angeles (LAX) August 2023 Depart: 9:35 AM Arrive: 11:45 AM Duration: 11hr, 10min Aircraft: Airbus A350-900 Distance: 5,624 miles Seats: 48F, G, H, J (Economy Class)

Onboard, it took us several minutes to reach our seat as people were standing in the aisle storing their bags.

The A350 economy class cabin features 228 seats and is configured 3-3-3 in economy class (business class review here ). These seats, except for bulkhead seats, have a bi-fold table and water bottle holder. Pitch is 31 inches, the seats are 17.3 inches wide, and the recline is six inches.

The pictures below I took when we landed in Los Angeles.

Are the seats comfortable? Not particularly – more padding would have been nice. But I also did not find the seats any worse (or better) than most economy class seats on a European or US carrier. In that sense, I would not make a determination for or against SAS based on the seat. But legroom was just fine for the kids.

Each seat had a coat hook:

Sadly, there were no individual air vents, though it never got hot onboard.

But what really turned me off was the lack of power ports beyond the USB-A power port on the IFE screen. This is a new aircraft and it boggles my mind that SAS would not add a universal A/C outlet. The upside was that I fully unplugged and took a break during the flight, but the downside was that if I wanted to work I would have been unable to. Bring one or more backup power sources if you intend to work in SAS economy class. This is really an omission that would cause me to book away in the future.

A small pillow and blanket were present at each seat.

The flight went out almost full, though my wife ended up with an open seat next to her (which my daughter used to take a mid-flight nap in).

IFE + Wi-Fi

SAS has a respectable IFE system with a large library of movies, TV shows, games, music, and a moving flight map. I quite like the interface.

Complimentary earbuds were offered…bring your own! These were horrible.

My favorite feature on the A350 is the HD tailcam, which is almost as fun as looking out the window:

I watched a Swedish movie called Hilma about the life of artist and mystic Hilma af Klint. While it was the shared surname that caught my attention, I thought the movie was very well-done and was not previously aware that Klint was one of the pioneers of abstract art.

The kids kept busy watching movies and TV shows:

The internet did not work for the first half of the flight, but after multiple resets functioned for the second half of the flight…though I did not use it. Pricing was very straightforward at 16USD for a flight pass without data caps.

As always, it was nice to look out the window too, especially over Greenland and while on final approach to Los Angeles International Airport.

Food + Drink

SAS straddles the line between a full-service and budget carrier when it comes to in-flight dining.

Just after takeoff, large bottles of water were offered to each passenger…this was greatly appreciated.

After we leveled out, lunch was served. There was no choice, just a beef hamburger patty in gravy with peas and mashed potatoes with a green salad and cake on the side. Vegetarian meals can be pre-ordered, but at a cost (special meals cost extra in economy class).

My wife and I ordered business class meals (must be done 24 hours in advance…details here ) and very much enjoyed our dishes. While 27EUR is pricey for a rather small airline meal, it really brings a bit of dignity to the economy class experience, and also includes two drinks, either alcoholic or non-alcoholic.

> Read More: My Premium Menu Experience On SAS (Order A Business Class Meal In Economy Class)

Meanwhile, economy class passengers who did not pre-order off the premium menu are offered a single non-alcoholic drink with each meal service (one after takeoff, one prior to landing).

Water, coffee, and tea are free between meals (and flight attendants did make a mid-flight coffee run and two water runs), but all other soft drinks or snacks must be purchased. A cart came down the aisle with snacks for sale and ordering was also available via screen.

90 minutes before arrival into Los Angeles, a light snack was served: a pastrami sandwich with apple juice. My kids did not like it, but I thought it was quite high-quality (a tad ironic) and ate all three sandwiches…

Service was very matter-of-fact. While by no means hostile, the flight attendants appeared simply to be going through the motions and did not show smiles (which has not been my experience when flying in business class on SAS). I was not looking for fake smiles (what some call American smiles…) but I just got the sense that flight attendants wanted to land in LAX and be done with their day.

Four lavatories are located in the rear of the first economy class cabin behind row 39 and two more are located in the rear. The four lavatories in the center of the plane are shared with premium economy class passengers.

Pros + Cons Of SAS Economy Class

I liked the efficiency of CPH Airport, the modern A350, and thought the quality of the food (even the complimentary food) was above-average. I appreciated the extensive IFE library and the wi-fi without data caps.

But I would rank SAS as a below-average economy class product because it charges for advanced seat assignments, offers no power outlets or individual air vents, provides a limited quantity of food, and nickels and dimes with snacks and beverages.

As a point of comparison, SWISS and KLM serve something heartier than that as a mid-flight snack, with a more substantial snack before arrival. I also found the flight attendants far more charming and engaging, though again the SAS flight attendants did nothing wrong.

We arrived in Los Angeles on time, quickly made our way through passport control (no Global Entry when I am with the family), and found our bags already on the baggage belt.

I would not hesitate to use SAS again in a pinch, but I do find it offers a below-average product overall.

About Author

Matthew Klint

Matthew is an avid traveler who calls Los Angeles home. Each year he travels more than 200,000 miles by air and has visited more than 135 countries. Working both in the aviation industry and as a travel consultant, Matthew has been featured in major media outlets around the world and uses his Live and Let's Fly blog to share the latest news in the airline industry, commentary on frequent flyer programs, and detailed reports of his worldwide travel.

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16 comments.

Looks like an okay product. I’ve never flown with SK but seeing your review here, I now see why KL has been following AY and SK’s footsteps in terms of onboard service in both Y and J as it is very cost effective and KL sees them as their competitors these days, unlike before covid.

Will say that these Scandinavian airlines and KL know how to cater pretty good sandwiches, even in Y.

You should do a post ranking all of these TATL economy flights. Granted, not much to differentiate them, but would be interesting to see where these airlines fall in your ranking.

Well put, SAS economy is low frills. Over long distances it’s just subpar. Many other and better carriers to do transatlantic economy like AF, KL, LX or BA. Even US carriers are better!

Quite honestly, I would rather fly any US carrier over SAS for the power ports alone.

But reading this review over has made me wistful for another one of those pre-arrival sandwiches.

Wow! What a miserable experience SAS economy class has become. Not even free soft drinks or a little snack in-between.

It is sooooo sad… 🙁

SAS have unbundled smiling FAs in economy. You need to pay 10 EUR per pleasant human interaction.

I would have!

I love the KL economy sandwich! Great review!

Whenever you encounter unsmiling crews keep in mind flying extensively messes with regular bowel function. You can help them by sharing standard GI medical advice. Daily regimen of Miralax,Colace and Benefiber to establish regularity and happy travels.

Say Matthew, am I misremembering or doesn’t Airbus specifically build their planes to make 18″ wide seats the norm? If that is the case why put in less comfortable narrower seats?

I thought so, but the dimensions are according to AeroLopa.

Thank you for these long haul economy reviews!!! Unlike some other places where there is an aversion to anything “economy”…travel isn’t always aspirational and it helps to have updated reviews of these economy cabins to help us pick when there are no premium options available.

+1 – it’s really helpful and appreciated!

Re: the power outlet situation: unfortunately, this is the direction most European carriers are going. In long-haul economy, you’re increasingly seeing new planes have only USB power in economy. If you want a full power outlet, you’ll need premium economy 🙁

Food-wise, I think the main meal quality is above average as you say! I wish there was a choice of meal, but the meals I had between SFO and CPH all tasted good.

As a scandinavian person I find the SAS staff very friendly, in scandinavian culture you would never expect a smile from a stranger (even a paying one). As for the seat selection – it is free if you check in online a day before! And I’d say seat selection is pretty cheap to pay for too. The most expensive seat is about 70 usd, when I book these seats I can stretch out my legs freely and I’m 6’3.

SAS is a poor man’s Finnair.

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The SAS™ series linear actuators provide long travel precision positioning. This high speed linear actuator utilizes recirculating bearings to minimize the overall moving envelope. It has a direct drive servo motor that is available in both ironless and ironcore versions.

Performance is further enhanced by combining a precision linear encoder. Standard options include flexible bellows to keep particulates in the environment away from the bearings and motor. This positioning stage cabling terminates on a static base plate, simplifying external wiring for convenient integration. Pneumatics and extra signal cables can be made available upon request, and routed to the moving top plate. Two linear actuators can be conveniently stacked into an XY configuration with 15 arc-second orthogonality.

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A packaging machine OEM required multiple stage to operate precisely at high speeds to move printer heads. The SAS™ high speed actuator bellows allows the stage to work in the harsh printing/ink environment and the direct drive motor provides speeds that could not be achieved with a screw driven stage.

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After Congress finally does pass new funding, this is how the US can rush weapons to Ukraine

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy thanked the US House of Representatives for passing the foreign aid bill in his nightly video-address on Saturday.

FILE -A steel worker moves a 155 mm M795 artillery projectile during the manufacturing process at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

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FILE - A steel worker manufactures 155 mm M795 artillery projectiles at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

FILE -Steel workers manufacture 155 mm M795 artillery projectiles at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

FILE -155 mm M795 artillery projectiles are stored for shipping to other facilities to complete the manufacturing process at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

FILE -A steel worker inspects a 155 mm M795 artillery projectile during the manufacturing process at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

FILE - 155 mm M795 artillery projectiles are stacked during manufacturing process at the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant in Scranton, Pa., Thursday, April 13, 2023. The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days if Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill. That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs. The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday, April 20, 2024. (AP Photo/Matt Rourke, File)

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Pentagon could get weapons moving to Ukraine within days once Congress passes a long-delayed aid bill . That’s because it has a network of storage sites in the U.S. and Europe that already hold the ammunition and air defense components that Kyiv desperately needs.

Moving fast is critical, CIA Director Bill Burns said this past week, warning that without additional aid from the U.S., Ukraine could lose the war to Russia by the end of this year.

“We would like very much to be able to rush the security assistance in the volumes we think they need to be able to be successful,” Pentagon press secretary Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder said.

The House approved $61 billion in funding for the war-torn country Saturday after Speaker Mike Johnson , R-La., pushed a larger foreign aid bill toward a vote despite threats from within his party that doing so could cost him his job . It still needs to clear the Senate.

After the House vote, Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said he was grateful “for the decision that keeps history on the right track.” He said on X, formerly Twitter that the House action “will keep the war from expanding, save thousands and thousands of lives, and help both of our nations to become stronger.”

President Joe Biden has said he would sign it “immediately.”

If that happens, “we have a very robust logistics network that enables us to move material very quickly,” Ryder told reporters this past week. “We can move within days.”

The Pentagon has had supplies ready to go for months but hasn’t moved them because it is out of money. It has already spent all of the funding Congress had previously provided to support Ukraine, sending more than $44 billion worth of weapons, maintenance, training and spare parts since Russia’s February 2022 invasion .

By December, the Pentagon was $10 billion in the hole , because it is going to cost more now to replace the systems it sent to the battlefield in Ukraine.

As a result, the Pentagon’s frequent aid packages for Ukraine dried up because there’s been no guarantee Congress would pass the additional funding needed to replenish the weapons the U.S. has been sending to Ukraine. The legislation would include more than $20 billion to restock the Pentagon’s shelves and ensure that the military services have what they need to fight and protect America.

The lag in weapons deliveries has forced Ukrainian troops to spend months rationing their dwindling supply of munitions.

A look at how the U.S. can quickly move weapons to Ukraine:

PRESIDENTIAL DRAWDOWN AUTHORITY

When an aid package for Ukraine is announced, the weapons are either provided through presidential drawdown authority, which allows the military to immediately pull from its stockpiles, or through security assistance, which funds longer-term contracts with the defense industry to obtain the systems.

The presidential drawdown authority, or PDA, as it’s known, has allowed the military to send billions of dollars worth of ammunition, air defense missile launchers , tanks, vehicles and other equipment to Ukraine.

“In the past, we’ve seen weapons transferred via presidential drawdown authority arrive within a matter of days,” said Brad Bowman, director at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies center on military and political power.

Those stocks are pulled from bases or storage facilities in the U.S. or from European sites where the U.S. has already surged weapons to cut down on the amount of time it will take to deliver them once the funding is approved.

DWINDLING U.S. STOCKS

As the war in Ukraine has dragged on, the U.S. began to send increasingly larger, more lethal and more expensive systems to the warfront. They included entire air defense systems, armored vehicles, sophisticated missiles — even Abrams tanks .

Those systems cost more to replace , so the military — in particular, the Army — went deeper into debt. Compounding that, the military in some cases opted to replace older systems sent to Ukraine with pricier, higher-tech ones at home.

As a result, Army leaders recently told Congress that without passage of the foreign aid bill, they will begin to run out of money and have to move funds from other accounts.

Army Secretary Christine Wormuth and Gen. Randy George, chief of staff of the Army, said the branch wouldn’t have enough money to bring home troops serving in Europe or to train units in the U.S.

U.S. WEAPONS STORAGE

The military has massive weapons storage facilities in the U.S. for millions of rounds of munitions of all sizes that would be ready to use in case of war.

For example, the McAlester Army Ammunition Plant in Oklahoma sprawls across 45,000 acres (70 square miles) connected by rail and has a mission to surge as many as 435 shipping containers — each able to carry 15 tons (30,000 pounds) worth of munitions — if ordered by the president.

The facility is also a major storage site for one of the most used munitions on Ukraine’s battlefield, 155 mm howitzer rounds.

The demand by Ukraine for that particular shell has put pressure on U.S. stockpiles and pushed the military to see where else it could get them. As a result, tens of thousands of 155 mm rounds have been shipped back from South Korea to McAlester to be retrofitted for Ukraine.

STORING WEAPONS IN EUROPE

According to a U.S. military official, the U.S. would be able to send certain munitions “almost immediately” to Ukraine because storehouses exist in Europe.

Among the weapons that could go very quickly are the 155 mm rounds and other artillery, along with some air defense munitions. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss preparations not yet made public.

A host of sites across Germany, Poland and other European allies also are helping Ukraine maintain and train on systems sent to the front. For example, Germany set up a maintenance hub for Kyiv’s Leopard 2 tank fleet in Poland, near the Ukrainian border.

The nearby maintenance hubs hasten the turnaround time to get needed repairs done on the Western systems.

Follow the AP’s coverage of Russia’s war in Ukraine at https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine .

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Hot Oceans Worsened Dubai’s Dramatic Flooding, Scientists Say

An international team of researchers found that heavy rains had intensified in the region, though they couldn’t say for sure how much climate change was responsible.

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By Raymond Zhong

Scenes of flood-ravaged neighborhoods in one of the planet’s driest regions stunned the world this month. Heavy rains in the United Arab Emirates and Oman submerged cars, clogged highways and killed at least 21 people. Flights out of Dubai’s airport, a major global hub, were severely disrupted.

The downpours weren’t a total surprise — forecasters had anticipated the storms several days earlier and issued warnings. But they were certainly unusual.

Here’s what to know.

Heavy rain there is rare, but not unheard-of.

On average, the Arabian Peninsula receives a scant few inches of rain a year, although scientists have found that a sizable chunk of that precipitation falls in infrequent but severe bursts, not as periodic showers. These rains often come during El Niño conditions like the ones the world is experiencing now.

U.A.E. officials said the 24-hour rain total on April 16 was the country’s largest since records there began in 1949 . And parts of the nation had already experienced an earlier round of thunderstorms in March.

Oman, with its coastline on the Arabian Sea, is also vulnerable to tropical cyclones. Past storms there have brought torrential rain, powerful winds and mudslides, causing extensive damage.

Global warming is projected to intensify downpours.

Stronger storms are a key consequence of human-caused global warming. As the atmosphere gets hotter, it can hold more moisture, which can eventually make its way down to the earth as rain or snow.

But that doesn’t mean rainfall patterns are changing in precisely the same way across every part of the globe.

In their latest assessment of climate research , scientists convened by the United Nations found there wasn’t enough data to have firm conclusions about rainfall trends in the Arabian Peninsula and how climate change was affecting them. The researchers said, however, that if global warming were to be allowed to continue worsening in the coming decades, extreme downpours in the region would quite likely become more intense and more frequent.

Hot oceans are a big factor.

An international team of scientists has made a first attempt at estimating the extent to which climate change may have contributed to April’s storms. The researchers didn’t manage to pin down the connection precisely, though in their analysis, they did highlight one known driver of heavy rain in the region: above-normal ocean temperatures.

Large parts of the Indian, Pacific and Atlantic Oceans have been hotter than usual recently, in part because of El Niño and other natural weather cycles, and in part because of human-induced warming .

When looking only at El Niño years, the scientists estimated that storm events as infrequent as this month’s delivered 10 percent to 40 percent more rain to the region than they would in a world that hadn’t been warmed by human activities. They cautioned, however, that these estimates were highly uncertain.

“Rainfall, in general, is getting more extreme,” said Mansour Almazroui, a climate scientist at King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and one of the researchers who contributed to the analysis.

The analysis was conducted by scientists affiliated with World Weather Attribution, a research collaboration that studies extreme weather events shortly after they occur. Their findings about this month’s rains haven’t yet been peer reviewed, but are based on standardized methods .

The role of cloud seeding isn’t clear.

The U.A.E. has for decades worked to increase rainfall and boost water supplies by seeding clouds. Essentially, this involves shooting particles into clouds to encourage the moisture to gather into larger, heavier droplets, ones that are more likely to fall as rain or snow.

Cloud seeding and other rain-enhancement methods have been tried around the world, including in Australia, China, India, Israel, South Africa and the United States. Studies have found that these operations can, at best, affect precipitation modestly — enough to turn a downpour into a bigger downpour, but probably not a drizzle into a deluge.

Still, experts said pinning down how much seeding might have contributed to this month’s storms would require detailed study.

“In general, it is quite a challenge to assess the impact of seeding,” said Luca Delle Monache, a climate scientist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, Calif. Dr. Delle Monache has been leading efforts to use artificial intelligence to improve the U.A.E.’s rain-enhancement program.

An official with the U.A.E.’s National Center of Meteorology, Omar Al Yazeedi, told news outlets that the agency didn’t conduct any seeding during the latest storms. His statements didn’t make clear, however, whether that was also true in the hours or days before.

Mr. Al Yazeedi didn’t respond to emailed questions from The New York Times, and Adel Kamal, a spokesman for the center, didn’t have further comment.

Cities in dry places just aren’t designed for floods.

Wherever it happens, flooding isn’t just a matter of how much rain comes down. It’s also about what happens to all that water once it’s on the ground — most critically, in the places people live.

Cities in arid regions often aren’t designed to drain very effectively. In these areas, paved surfaces block rain from seeping into the earth below, forcing it into drainage systems that can easily become overwhelmed.

One recent study of Sharjah , the capital of the third-largest emirate in the U.A.E., found that the city’s rapid growth over the past half-century had made it vulnerable to flooding at far lower levels of rain than before.

Omnia Al Desoukie contributed reporting.

Raymond Zhong reports on climate and environmental issues for The Times. More about Raymond Zhong